Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

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Oscar_Actuary
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Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:42 pm

I have a two part question here that probably works ok as a singe post.

In general: Where does volume fit in to a strength emphasis program. Say, my singular goal is to Bench Press 5x, 20 more lbs than I can today. We can have a long discussion on assistance lifts, including partials and speed work, but lets not.

Maybe the topic answer goes down the path of “Volume builds certain specific muscle, that will aide in getting stronger, better than lifting heavier alone would…”
Or
“Volume work is good for some lifters to use on some days to help recovery from the heavy days, while maintaining strength it allows for full recovery…”

I don’t know, I’m asking.

Why? Because I think one of the problems I have in home design programs (mine) is figuring out when “the reason I cant Squat more” or more real example “Press more from one two weeks to another”, is due to insufficient volume or too much. And by “volume” I’m throwing in frequency here too. So one has to consider how often to do “X” and when doing “X” how many Reps and Sets to do, i.e. what intensity to use. Hah, guess thats why Prepackaged Programs are so popular, and I bet something like Rippetoes book (one after SS) would be good for me! (too much to read to get to that now though)

{ upon re-read here, want to be clear, I’m certain it’s not only a program design that is holding me back, I realize I can’t just design myself to lifting more, but to the exent it may contribute, alas}

Are there indications though that you need to do a lift more or less frequently? Trial and error? For example, I think I do best Squatting 2x per week and DL maybe every 5 days. And Pressing and Bench Pressing, 1/week, at least. I don’t have enough experience to say for sure. Probably a good argument to staying with some program longer.

And finally, on Volume. As a example, I would often follow a 3x5 Bench Press with Db Decline Press for 3x12. These are so similar, but yet different stabilizers and feel. I wondered if using the exact same movement is a better option. I bro-sciencely and some experience suspect it’s better to use a slightly different exercise for the volume work so that you don’t psychologically get used to lighter weights? I notice on Volume squat days, then going back to Heavy Squat, in as much as the Volume days felt nice and light, the Heavy days were well …heavier feeling. And I think the warm ups were adequate but maybe that contributes to the sensation (not re-acclimating) Hmmm, you know, wonder if going fast as possible on the Volume days would reduce that “lite” sensation and help this issue of going back to heavy.

All of this presuming adequate caloric intake. Me for now, less calories, so suspect pull back on volume a good idea if want to maintain strength, but I digress.

Ok, I’ll fine tune this as we get some responses. Pretty sure I went on and on and some where it will be misinterpreted!

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Khronos8 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:26 pm

I had this long post with a detailed work out plan and hit backspace. Which took me back a page and erased everything.

Boiled down: pick one major lift per session. Work 4 to 5 sets of very heavy triples (think 90% 1RM or better). Do assistance spread through the week. On Deadlift day, do 5-10 sets of heavy singles (85-90% 1RM). Take 3-5 minutes between your heavy sets.

<EDIT>

Okay, went back and reread what your original question was. I dont think I've give the answer you were looking for (I didnt answer the question you asked).

I believe, at your stage, adding volume will only hinder your recovery. If you are trying to build strength, focus on very heavy, low rep exercises. Volume will typically help you build muscle mass (which can help build strength) but if you are just going for peak strength, volume is not your friend.
Last edited by Khronos8 on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:36 pm

thanks Kenny!

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by KenDowns » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:26 pm

What Kronos said.

Also what people told me, pick a program and stick with it (I still get defensive about that because I was not actually hopping programs but whatever). You have said more than once that you shift your program frequently, like once a month. This is, to put it simply, a bad idea. It makes it impossible to compare results over any period of time.

No surprise, but going to 5/3/1 would probably be a very good idea. I gives you a fixed structure that is well proven to build strength, while providing 2-3 slots/day for the tinkerer in all of us to swap around accessories.

Now, take this with a grain of salt, because you know I've only been lifting a year, and only on a real program for 6 months, but, that being said, so far, volume has never done anything for me.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:04 pm

Yeah, I knew the OP was too long to get to the point.

Seriously, thanks Khronos8, but I was trynig to leanr more about the benefit of adding volume more than the the best way to increase lifts. From your responsew though, I'll presume you don't think to highly of volume for strength benefits.

And, I'm not just talknig about 3x15 type volume, But 6x6 vs 3x3 type protocols.

I also wonder if it depends on the proximity of your goal. Say if you have 10 lbs on Bench to increase, for 5 reps, or say 30 lbs. Now, will you be best served in the 30 lb goal to mix in some volume to "build mass" or is that type of muscle not really going to help. ON a broader topic other than Volume, I would guess there are strategies that work better for near goals but would not be the best for longer goals. Or maybe every goal should be looked at as a series of small goals, and hence, the solutions are equivalent..

yeah, I"m a bit into this.

Oh Ken did not mean to ignore you. I do not disagre with you. I was close to a 5/3/1 style set up and am seeing the appeal of having a pattern to follow for prgression, as linear is not there anymore. But at this point, with cutting diet, I've gone back to super simple, heavy lifting template. And yes, the biggest and maybe only fall out I" see from switching a lot is tracking the effectiveness of various programs/protocols/accesorries

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by nygmen » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:47 am

Oscar_Actuary wrote: but I was trynig to leanr more about the benefit of adding volume more than the the best way to increase lifts.
Volume over intensity has its place. It can be goal dependent, individual dependent, and situational dependent.

But keep in mind, volume for the sake of volume is doo doo, and often why I think people feel it is useless. Doing sets of 135x20 with BB shrugs once a week for a year, is going to have jack for carry over. Now going from 135x20 to 495x35 in that same year, is going to have a TON of carryover. You can't just pick some non-challenging weight and do 800,000 reps with it and expect magic to happen because you call it volume. Just because you are doing 2x20 or 6x6, or 18x2, you still, above all else, have to be increasing the loading over time, whether that be TUT or raw weight on the bar.

Some benefits of volume:
1) Tends to produce more size gains, which give you better leverages. Better leverages = bigger numbers = stronger you = more size gains. A strong muscle can become a big muscle easier, and a big muscle can become a strong muscle easier. It is a chicken/egg situation. Any one person can get from small and weak to large and strong either way, it will be individual dependent for a couple of reasons. Once you "get" that, the questions on volume are easier to answer.

2) Volume is easier to recover from. Now Now if your work capacity, diet and endurance suck, this won't be the case. But once you get to the point where you banging heavy ass weights, and I'm not talking about relative strength here, I'm talking big numbers, your joints and 'CNS" (T-Nation has ruined CNS for me, hate it now) just can't take working in triples in all the lifts all the time over months and months. Why do you think Deloads are programmed? Because most people aren't smart enough to pull back naturally, so authors write it in. Taking a couple weeks/months whatever to focus on turning your 8RM on bench into your 12RM will, in fact, most times, increase your 1RM. Look, elite level powerlifters lift 2 and 3 times a week, because they need more time to recover, and are on as much gear as the elite level bodybuilders that are hitting a bodypart twice in 6 days, and training 5-6 days a week. (You are deluding yourself if you think they aren't all on the same amounts of the same types of AAS.)



I also wonder if it depends on the proximity of your goal. Say if you have 10 lbs on Bench to increase, for 5 reps, or say 30 lbs. Now, will you be best served in the 30 lb goal to mix in some volume to "build mass" or is that type of muscle not really going to help.
Of course it will help, lol. Weight moves weight. Why do you think the strongest powerlifters in the world are fat as hell? Weight moves weight. Bigger muscles are stronger muscles, and also add to leverages, which means bigger lifts. Fat adds to your leverages too.

Now getting fat isn't going to magically make you a 500lbs bencher, but, it will get you over a 10lbs plateau

ON a broader topic other than Volume, I would guess there are strategies that work better for
different people.

^ is finishing your quoted statement. You have to do what you enjoy, what you feel works for you in your schedule and your goals.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Paperclip » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:46 am

nygmen wrote:(You are deluding yourself if you think they aren't all on the same amounts of the same types of AAS.)
Well, this may be true for those in the superheavy class (powerlifters and olympic lifters) but I think those who have to stay in their respective weight limit have to be more selective in selecting the type of AAS and the dose.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by KenDowns » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:50 am

nygmen wrote: Doing sets of 135x20 with BB shrugs once a week for a year, is going to have jack for carry over. Now going from 135x20 to 495x35 in that same year, is going to have a TON of carryover.
Assuming a 5/3/1 program, with advancing numbers, do you:

1) do something like [email protected]% and let the numbers rise or

2) also try to get that 50% to 55, 60 and so forth, producing a double rise.

The second one sounds like more fun.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by nygmen » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:20 pm

Paperclip wrote:
nygmen wrote:(You are deluding yourself if you think they aren't all on the same amounts of the same types of AAS.)
Well, this may be true for those in the superheavy class (powerlifters and olympic lifters) but I think those who have to stay in their respective weight limit have to be more selective in selecting the type of AAS and the dose.

lmao...

whatever helps you sleep at night dude

Dude pictured competes in the 220's. lol
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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Paperclip » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:38 pm

nygmen wrote: lmao...

whatever helps you sleep at night dude

Dude pictured competes in the 220's. lol
I'm afraid that I don't get what you mean.... Are you saying that people (men) who compete in weight classes beside the superheavy/unlimited class and want to stay in their respective weight class take more than 1g (arbitrary number) of AAS per week?

Also I'm not that familiar with the US weight classes. Is there something particular about Matt Kroc competing in 220?

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by stuward » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:51 pm

What he's saying is that people in all weight classes use (or abuse, depending on your view) performance enhancing drugs.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by nygmen » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:58 pm

Paperclip wrote: Are you saying that people (men) who compete in weight classes beside the superheavy/unlimited class and want to stay in their respective weight class take more than 1g (arbitrary number) of AAS per week?
I'm saying there are people who blast and cruse all year, and still have a low total and look like doo doo. And there are guys with pro genetics who are blowing up on newb cycles...

To assume that only the super heavies are the ones on the same types and doses of AAS as bodybuilders is asinine. To assume you or I can tell how much ANYONE is on is asinine.

Are there cycles someone could design that will put 50lbs on your total without you gaining an ounce of weight? yup... And it has nothing to do with amount of drug abuse outside of what that individual responds to and has sides with.


My point is, and was, it isn't the drugs that allow bodybuilders to train bodyparts twice in a 6 day period that powerlifters have to train every 7 or more days. They are both on gear.
Also I'm not that familiar with the US weight classes. Is there something particular about Matt Kroc competing in 220?
are you trolling me right now?

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Paperclip » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:17 pm

stuward wrote:What he's saying is that people in all weight classes use (or abuse, depending on your view) performance enhancing drugs.
nygmen wrote: My point is, and was, it isn't the drugs that allow bodybuilders to train bodyparts twice in a 6 day period that powerlifters have to train every 7 or more days. They are both on gear.
I get this and agree, but I thought nygmen was saying that athletes in sports with weight classes (except those in unlimited class) can take how much gear they want like a recreational BBer. There's also the issue of what kind of AAS and PEDs which are suitable for athletes who are concerned for not gaining anymore weight.

I actually have little knowledge about this issue but I'm definitely interested about it and have been collecting some info because I participate in a sport with weight classes.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:24 pm

nygmen,

thanks for addressing many of the points I asked about.

I realize I know very litle about the concept of leverages as it relates to lifting weights.

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Re: Adding Volume, Goal to Get Stronger

Post by nygmen » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:29 pm

Paperclip wrote: I get this and agree, but I thought nygmen was saying that athletes in sports with weight classes (except those in unlimited class) can take how much gear they want like a recreational BBer.
They can, lol. It all depends on the individual and their genetics. How they respond to low or high does, sides etc etc etc.

Are some of the top names on a ton of $h1t? Sure. Are some of the top names on not as much as you think? Sure.

The right genetics can make the smallest amounts of gear god like.
Oscar_Actuary wrote:nygmen,

thanks for addressing many of the points I asked about.

I realize I know very litle about the concept of leverages as it relates to lifting weights.
A change in body weight can drastically change your leverages and in turn change how much you can lift, whether it be through the same ROM, shorter or longer ROM.

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