Paleo and grains

Ask and answer questions, discuss research and applications

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, ianjay, stuward

User avatar
stuward
moderator
moderator
Posts: 6600
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Halifax, NS

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by stuward » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:37 am

Oscar_Actuary wrote:... I think much of Stu, but we can get too monolithic in these smaller forums...
This is precisely why I've been keeping out of the debate except for that link. 10 years ago, cutting out grains was heresy. Today, it's become a fad and many cut grains that don't need to. However, it's my opinion that the standard guidelines for grains are too high and many people have been helped by cutting them. Comparing what works for young healthy people and people with challenges makes no sense. If what's working for you is not working, you need to look at other options and this is one of them. It's all in the context. In general, healthy people don't ask for help, and don't need it. Most advice given here or elsewhere is aimed at people looking for help and therefore it's skewed towards a minority population. If someone was to extrapolate that advice to the general population, I would say that is a problem with the reader.
Stu Ward
_________________
Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
_________________
Thanks TimD

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:30 am

grains contain gluten.

gluten causes inflammation.

inflammation can kill you in about ten zillion ways.

That's all I need to know to limit grains. I'm not worried about what they'll do to my body composition, it's the inflammation I worry about.

Oscar_Actuary
Veteren Member
Veteren Member
Posts: 2406
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:12 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:19 pm

I should distinguish between diagnosed brain scan ADD and using it as an excuse for not raising better behaved children who sit still and let others learn in class, etc.

I love CapnCrunch.

NightFaLL
Member
Member
Posts: 778
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:20 am

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by NightFaLL » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:14 pm

robertscott wrote:grains contain gluten.

gluten causes inflammation.

inflammation can kill you in about ten zillion ways.

That's all I need to know to limit grains. I'm not worried about what they'll do to my body composition, it's the inflammation I worry about.
Lifting weights causes inflammation.

Should probably cut that out.

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:32 pm

NightFaLL wrote:
robertscott wrote:grains contain gluten.

gluten causes inflammation.

inflammation can kill you in about ten zillion ways.

That's all I need to know to limit grains. I'm not worried about what they'll do to my body composition, it's the inflammation I worry about.
Lifting weights causes inflammation.

Should probably cut that out.
don't be silly, it's not the same.

besides, lifting weights makes you awesome

NightFaLL
Member
Member
Posts: 778
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:20 am

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by NightFaLL » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:14 pm

robertscott wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:
robertscott wrote:grains contain gluten.

gluten causes inflammation.

inflammation can kill you in about ten zillion ways.

That's all I need to know to limit grains. I'm not worried about what they'll do to my body composition, it's the inflammation I worry about.
Lifting weights causes inflammation.

Should probably cut that out.
don't be silly, it's not the same.

besides, lifting weights makes you awesome
Please explain the difference to me. I'm genuinely curious.

Jebus
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1106
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:04 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by Jebus » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:29 pm

NightFaLL wrote: Please explain the difference to me. I'm genuinely curious.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... d-and-foe/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NightFaLL
Member
Member
Posts: 778
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:20 am

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by NightFaLL » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:45 pm

Jebus wrote:
NightFaLL wrote: Please explain the difference to me. I'm genuinely curious.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... d-and-foe/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That was kind of the point I was making - you're assuming that inflammation is SUPA DUPA bad, but it all depends on context.

As the articles points out, these are just buzz words that people use that don't really have any meaning out of context.

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:25 am

sorry, I should've been more specific. It's the chronic inflammation of the gut caused by grain consumption I was referring to.

acute inflammation = good
chronic inflammation = very bad indeed

NightFaLL
Member
Member
Posts: 778
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:20 am

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by NightFaLL » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:55 pm

robertscott wrote:sorry, I should've been more specific. It's the chronic inflammation of the gut caused by grain consumption I was referring to.

acute inflammation = good
chronic inflammation = very bad indeed
How is the inflammation from grain significantly more dangerous than the inflammation from other foods?

Rice and potatoes both cause more inflammation from what I've read, so why haven't those been demonized as much as grain has?

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:28 am

essentially, it's the gluten that makes the big difference. Grains have it in spades and it's really bad news.

nightshades contain alkaloids, and although alkaloids have been associated with inflammation, it's never been definitively proven and generally speaking you'll be alright unless you have a condition like GERD or gout. Cooking nightshades will also vastly reduce the alkaloid content.

There's some really good Marks Daily Apple articles on the subject:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/paleo-po ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/potatoes ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/nightsha ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/inflamma ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-grai ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-rice- ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/gluten-c ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

as you may have guessed, I freakin' LOVE Mark's Daily Apple. Such a good site with so much good info.

NightFaLL
Member
Member
Posts: 778
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:20 am

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by NightFaLL » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:36 am

robertscott wrote:essentially, it's the gluten that makes the big difference. Grains have it in spades and it's really bad news.

nightshades contain alkaloids, and although alkaloids have been associated with inflammation, it's never been definitively proven and generally speaking you'll be alright unless you have a condition like GERD or gout. Cooking nightshades will also vastly reduce the alkaloid content.

There's some really good Marks Daily Apple articles on the subject:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/paleo-po ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/potatoes ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/nightsha ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/inflamma ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-grai ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-rice- ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/gluten-c ... z1zMufzLlx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

as you may have guessed, I freakin' LOVE Mark's Daily Apple. Such a good site with so much good info.
Gluten, as I've stated before, only adversely affects around 5-7% of the human population.

It seems unfair to throw grains out the window simply because a small portion of the population is damaged by them. That's like saying nuts should be shied away from because part of the population is allergic.

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:42 am

gluten affects everyone, but only a small percentage have celiac disease.

Maybe you should read those links

User avatar
stuward
moderator
moderator
Posts: 6600
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Halifax, NS

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by stuward » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:00 am

There is still a lot of discussion on whether gluten affects gut permeability on people without celiac disease. I wouldn't assume that gluten affects everyone. Nightfall's 7% number is probably as good a guess as any. It's something to be aware of if you're not in perfect health and are wondering why. Gluten is just one potential irritant, along with dairy, nightshades and eggs. Too much sugar and chemically extracted vegetable oils are clear issues in almost everyone. These are often found in baked goods so, in an effort to reduce sugar and vegetable oil, I find eliminating grains is helpful.
Stu Ward
_________________
Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
_________________
Thanks TimD

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:06 am

according to Mark's Daily Apple, it's likely that a third of the population are sensitive to gluten, and the number might actually be much higher.

You're right though, I shouldn't have said "everybody"

Post Reply