vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

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Stephen Johnson
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by Stephen Johnson » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:06 pm

Most of the vegetarian/vegans that I've known who are involved with physical training tend to participate more in endurance exercise (especially running and cycling) than with resistance training. While their overall health is good (and their cardiovascular systems are excellent), many of them lack strength, particularly upper body strength. But that isn't much of a hinderance nowadays, when most members of the labor force are desk jockeys. Just being able to get off the couch suffices

Bill Pearl is a noted bodybuilder who as adopted a vegetarian diet, but he did so for health reasons after his competition days were over. Could he have achieved what he did during his heyday on a vegetarian diet? Perhaps, but I doubt it. The only person who got strong just by eating veggies is Popeye

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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by JasonJones » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:53 pm

I was a vegetarian for nearly a decade, vegan for 5(ish?) years. I've got a lot to say on the subject, so I'll split it into two parts:

Performance
From a marco nutrient perspective, veg*nism lends itself better to endurance activities than it does to strength training. That said, there are vegetarian and even vegan bodybuilders, like Steve Holt and Robert Cheeke, and I've had the opportunity to speak with the former as well as some other vegetarian athletes like Brendan Brazier back when I was a volunteer with a couple vegetarian organizations in my early 20s. I never found that vegetarianism was a limiting performance factor when I ate that way, and I even achieved my largest size to date — a whopping 160 pounds! — while vegetarian. Many of the best mass gaining foods like peanut butter and pasta are vegan, whey protein is vegetarian, and there are plenty of non-soy protein powders with amino acid profiles that are reasonably comparable to whey.

When I switched back to an omnivore diet — and my reasons were personal, not fitness based — I didn't notice any real change in performance. And I went straight for the steak, too. Dietary changes that have improved my performance have been independent of the vegetarian/omnivore choice; things like eating more and a greater variety of vegetables, eating less processed food, getting a handle on my crippling addiction to sweets. The kinds of things that tend to be universally effective.

Personal
When my partner and I met way back in the early 2000s we were both vegan, and now we're both red meat eating omnivores. What changed our mind wasn't so much the sheer amount of good science coming out of sources like Primal and Paleo (although that did help) as it was the sheer amount of balls to the wall blow your mind bats**t insanity coming out of the vegetarian "community" we had to extricate ourselves from. The excesses of white privilege were rampant, as were ridiculous social hierarchies and blackballing, attempts to usurp legitimate causes, protesting funerals… several of the heads of vegetarian organizations used their prestige to sleep with underage women. When soon-to-be Mrs. Jones came back from a visit to her dirt-poor no-running-water family in the Philippines she was vilified for eating around the fish in her rice and not taking a stand for the animals and making demands on their behalf, and after that we saw the writing on the wall. This was a growing problem more with the youth in the movement than the vegetarian veterans who just wanted to have more options at a restaurant than stir-fried veggies.
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:13 pm

extremist ruin it for all of us

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Stephen Johnson
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by Stephen Johnson » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:13 pm

Stephen Johnson wrote:Bill Pearl is a noted bodybuilder who as adopted a vegetarian diet, but he did so for health reasons after his competition days were over. Could he have achieved what he did during his heyday on a vegetarian diet? Perhaps, but I doubt it.
Correction: It turns out that Bill Pearl is an ovo-lacto vegetarian. Getting ample amounts of high quality protein on such a diet wouldn't have been a problem for Pearl. And he still would have been both genetically gifted and a hard worker. So I'll humbly eat my words :red:
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by ephs » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:19 am

maybe i'm going to try to be vegan a month and see how the lifting goes. but what is it all about that soy is very bad for testosterone level and for the body? some sources say soy is bad, but there is also soy protein available from the great joe weider.
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by stuward » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:15 am

Soy increases estrogen which is not a good thing for men. (Edit: no proven risk, just no proven benefit either)

Vegan style eating largely improves health due to what is left out. This is primarily junk food, sugar and grains. Some vegans eat grains, and they are what I like to call, fat. Any animal protein you can add will improve your health. Fish and other seafoods are best. Free range eggs are next. Dairy, especially cultured, high fat products like hard cheese and real yogurt are also healthy and these foods are less offensive to vegans than factory beef, for example.
Last edited by stuward on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by hoosegow » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:31 am

Though there is no dispute soy has phytoestrogens, I wouldn't worry at all about it.
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by ephs » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:46 am

so there is no real proof that soy decreases the testosterone-level? i used to use a component protein powder with soy in it, but now i have better results just by eating curd cheese.
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by Dub » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:23 am

Also take note that Soy protein in it self is poorer for lean mass gains and protein synthesis when compared to whey protein. But I would assume you ain't going full-blown vegan and can still eat dairy and maybe eggs? Whey and Casein are both from milk so it would be best not to lose them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15798080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John Kiefer doesn't like soy
http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/ ... in-killer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But in the article I linked before, there is a statement from a vegan bodybuilder Ed Bauer that “Sure, going overboard on soy can be harmful. But having a limited amount in your diet is fine. It will not turn you into a woman and it does not influence your sex drive. I try to limit my daily soy intake to around 50 grams, mostly from whole food sources like tempeh and tofu. But a little more on occasion has never been a problem for me.”
So maybe there is no one solid truth. Try it out yourself.
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by stuward » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:28 am

ephs wrote:so there is no real proof that soy decreases the testosterone-level? i used to use a component protein powder with soy in it, but now i have better results just by eating curd cheese.

I'm of the opinion than both potential risks or benefits of soy and phytoestrogens in general, have been exaggerated.

And no, there is no measurable change in testosterone due to soy, although some rat studies initially pointed in this direction.
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by robertscott » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:30 pm

hoosegow wrote:Though there is no dispute soy has phytoestrogens, I wouldn't worry at all about it.
I'm with hoose and Stu on this one. It's one of those things that once you start worrying about it, where does it end?

you'll start obsession over phytoestrogens, BPAs, all that stuff and you'll go mad.

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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by ephs » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:58 pm

if i try it (not sure), i gonna be 100% vegan for a month or so. but i found a supplier with protein powder out of rice and peas. what do you think about that?
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by robertscott » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:05 pm

sounds like traditional jamaican deliciousness to me...

...it'll be fine.

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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by ephs » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:46 pm

not good?
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Re: vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore

Post by robertscott » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:01 pm

it's fine

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