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mallenorrn
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Post by mallenorrn » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:41 pm

I feel that I have inundated myself with so much valuable information, much from this site and much more from other publications. I am now totally confused. Sometimes I feel as if I'm doing to much and other times I feel that it is not enough. On my back and shoulder routines I rarely get sore so I find i do more and more types of exercises on those days.
I am posting todays Shoulder routine as an example and am asking for anybodies input on ways to improve it and my overall investment in thime and energy. I am currently splitting my routine into, chest and triceps, back and biceps, legs and abds, and shoulders. I throw cardio in on my off days (usually) and other wise shoot for every other day for lifting.

All feed back is appreciated!!!


Shoulders weight/reps

rear deltoid row dumbbell 35 /12 45/12 50/12
Bentover rear deltoid fly dumbbell 20/10 15/12 20/10
Seated reear deltoid press lever 70/15 80/12 90/10
Lateral raise lever 70/12 80/12 100/9
pulley crossover lateral raise pulley 20/12 20/12 20/10
upright row cable 100/12 110/12 120/10 50/16
shoulder press front smith 50/12 70/12 90/6
standing dumbell press dumbbell 25/12 30/10 40/6
front raise dumbbell 10/12 12.5/12 15/12
rear delt row bar 50/12 50/12 70/12
raise dumbell 20/15 30/12 40/10
shrugs smith 90/12 130/12 160/12 130/12 90/25

plus another that I thought targeted my anterior delts and serattus.

Thanks


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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:59 pm

You're exercising your deltoids three times a week - the anterior deltoid gets used when you train chest, the posterior deltoid is used with back, plus the separate shouder workout. And in the shoulder workout, you throw every exercise in but the k-word sink!

I would drop the separate shoulder workout and go tothree workouts a week - upper body push, upper body pull and legs. The exercises, sets and reps are up to you, but keep in mind that more definitely is not better.

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Post by Matt Z » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:24 am

"I would drop the separate shoulder workout and go to three workouts a week - upper body push, upper body pull and legs." - Stephen Johnson

I agree. Also, I'd recomend the following:
A) Cut down on the number of exercises per workout.
B) Focus on free-weight compound movements.
C) Varry the loading and number of reps from workout to workout.

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Post by Matt Z » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:27 am

To put it in perspective, you're doing more exercises for your shoulders in one workout than I am for my whole body over an entire week.

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ugh

Post by mallenorrn » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:40 pm

Thanks for your quick responses. So if I am working my shoulders that hard why aren't they as big as it sounds like they should be? Since they rarely feel sore I assumed I was good based on the recover time.
TO seek clarification:

[i][i]"I agree. Also, I'd recommend the following:"
"A) Cut down on the number of exercises per workout."[/i]
How do I convince my self that it is as good?

[i]"B) Focus on free-weight compound movements."[/i]
I have in the past but recently went to different machines just to mix it up.

[i]"C) Vary the loading and number of reps from workout to workout."[/i]
So by this you mean put more into one or a few exercises (load or resistance) rather than a moderate amount into many? Do I vary it daily, weekly, or monthly?

I guess my problem lies in wanting the perfect workout plan that provides growth, definition, and a good time balance.

I used to do the split routine but got away from it cause it was sucking up hours at the gym (but thinking back I started piling on different exercises even then). I think I will have to go back and rethink my approach.

Do you follow the suggested programs in this site to the tee? Or do you adjust it to be more personal?

Sorry I'm full of questions...


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Post by stuward » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:12 pm

There's no such thing as the perfect program. Every program will become ineffective as soon as your body adapts to it. Your body adapts to rep ranges the fastest so vary the reps from time to time. Military press is the best shoulder exercise. To shock them from time too time, mix in some push presses. Flys are OK for some variety but should not be the mainstay of your program. As Stephen said, bench press and push ups hit your anterior delts and rows hit your posterior delts.

The more exercises you do for a body part, the less intensity you can use. Doing fewer exercises will allow you to add the needed intensity.

Stu

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Re: ugh

Post by Stephen Johnson » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:46 pm

mallenorrn wrote:Thanks for your quick responses. So if I am working my shoulders that hard why aren't they as big as it sounds like they should be? Since they rarely feel sore I assumed I was good based on the recover time.
The short answer is that you probably aren't working your shoulders hard. You're doing high volume, but you're probably not using weights that will challenge them to grow. So they don't.

If you are working them hard, you have to guard against overtraining. Overtraining kills muscle growth. And contrary to popular belief, lack of muscle soreness is not a foolproof measure for recovery.
mallenorrn wrote:"I agree. Also, I'd recommend the following:"
"A) Cut down on the number of exercises per workout."

How do I convince my self that it is as good?


By getting better results in less time.

mallenorrn wrote:"B) Focus on free-weight compound movements."
I have in the past but recently went to different machines just to mix it up.


If you want to mix it up, become a bartender.

Quite frankly, basic freeweight training is hard if done correctly. No wonder many trainers opt for high volume/multiple exercise routines using mostly machines thinking that they're doing the same amount of work. They aren't.

mallenorrn wrote:I guess my problem lies in wanting the perfect workout plan that provides growth, definition, and a good time balance.


Muscle growth and muscle definition are two separate and somewhat different goals. Growing muscle usually involves weight gain, while definition usually involves weight loss. Although in theory it's possible to do both simultaneously, as a practical matter you usually have to choose one over the other.

mallenorrn wrote:I used to do the split routine but got away from it cause it was sucking up hours at the gym (but thinking back I started piling on different exercises even then). I think I will have to go back and rethink my approach.


No weight workout should last much more than an hour. There is some evidence that the beneficial hormonal changes that take place during vigorous weight training peak after 45/60 minutes then drop off quickly. And if you're working really hard, 60-75 minutes for a workout is more than enough time.

mallenorrn wrote:Do you follow the suggested programs in this site to the tee? Or do you adjust it to be more personal?


The exercise templates on this site can be adjusted to the tastes of the trainer. Beginners would do well to follow the templates as they are, then modify them as they gain more weight training experience if so desired.

You should design programs that you know that you will follow for a couple of weeks at least, so you can gauge your progress objectively. If things aren't working out as you'd like, you can make changes. But you should NOT start a program, then change everything willy-nilly as you go forward. You'll never be able to determine your progress.if you don't stick with a game plan long enough.

mallenorrn wrote:Sorry I'm full of questions...


No Problem. That's what we're here for - to help each other out.

I left your question about varying sets, weights and reps unanswered. Some of the others on this board know more about that stuff than a gym rat like me. You could help them by listing all your workouts. But as a rule, more that 12 exercises per workout is overkill. And if you're doing a lot of squatting or deadlifting in a workout (as you should!) you're probably pushing it with more than 8 exercises.

Good luck, and happy training.

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Too much isolation.

Post by TradelessJack » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:37 am

I think you would gain much more bulk in the shoulders if you were to use compound motions and heavier weights. In trying to isolate each part of your shoulders, you are often using only 50, 20, or even 10 pounds at a time. From a physics standpoint, you are not getting much work (force x distance) done for the amount off time you’re putting in.

Not only are not making efficient use of your time in the gym, you’re not giving your muscles time to recover properly. I assume you are doing bench press on your chest day, and bent-over rows or some kind of horizontal row on your back day. If so, then there is no need to target the anterior or posterior deltoids. I hope you are also doing Dead lift at some point in the week. If so, then you can get rid of the shrugs.

Personally, the only lifts I do to target my shoulders, are overhead press http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Press.html, and clean http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Oly ... Clean.html. When I’m doing full body workouts and I’m trying to consolidate my routine, I like to combine hang clean http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Oly ... Clean.html and push press http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Oly ... Press.html onto one very compound lift. Of course, there are lots of different ways to work shoulders, but you don’t have to do them all in one trip to the gym.

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Post by TimD » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:49 am

Tradeles, you just read my mind. If all you were to do were the clean in conjunction with the press/push-press-push jerk a few times/week you could get both big and strong fairly quickly, all over. Through in squats dips and chins and everything is covered. No long-drawn out routines. In and out of the gym very quickly.
Tim

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wow

Post by mallenorrn » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:28 am

Thanks for all the feedback. It is a little disheartening to think of all that I have been doing and all that I could have been doing different. It will take me some time to tailor a new routine. As I do I will keep all this feedback in mind.

Oh and deadlifts, over shrugs????? The info in this site only identifies shrugs as an upper trap excercise so I haven't been including them into any routine. Where would they fit better on the leg day?

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Re: wow

Post by Stephen Johnson » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:06 am

mallenorrn wrote:The info in this site only identifies shrugs as an upper trap excercise so I haven't been including them into any routine. Where would they fit better on the leg day?
If you do the three day split of upper body pull/upper body push/legs, you would do Shrugs on the upper body pull day, after the General Back exercise. If you follow a full body routine like TradelessJack's, you wouldn't need to Shrug since the exercises like the Clean hits the upper traps pretty well.

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Where you talking to me?

Post by TradelessJack » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:22 pm

mallenorrn wrote:Oh and deadlifts, over shrugs????? The info in this site only identifies shrugs as an upper trap excercise so I haven't been including them into any routine. Where would they fit better on the leg day?
Just to clear things up, I suggested that the smith shrugs you listed as part of your routine are not needed at all if you are doing dead lifts. People would generally do dead lifts on leg day because it works the quads and glutes so much. If you look at the description for dead lifts, middle, and upper traps are listed as stabilizers. In the execution where it says,
Pull shoulders back at top of lift
; you are effectively doing a shrug at the top of your dead lift, so there is no need to do shrugs again.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Ere ... dlift.html

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Post by Matt Z » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:28 pm

Don't think that focusing on free weights means you need to sacrafice variety. I can think of at least 6 different types of ovehead barbell press and probably as many variations of overhead dumbbell press. You just can't do them all in one workout. Instead, just pick one you like and stick with it for several weeks or months. Then, when you get bored or stop making pregress switch off to another similar exercise.


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