Machine Row/Rear Delt

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stharrison
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Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by stharrison » Thu May 31, 2012 3:45 pm

Signed up to a new gym for 3months at home, its got all Cybex machines e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MKGArS7w7c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Couple of questions:
1. I've been told the horizontal grip is better for rear delt activation?
2. Thumbs! Should they be on top of the bar or wrapped round?

Any tips or advice is welcome :)

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by robertscott » Thu May 31, 2012 3:49 pm

1. Horizontal will be slightly better
2. Thumbs should be wrapped around. Always wrapped around for every exercise you ever do.

But the real important question is: Why are you using those candy ass cybex machines? Use dumbells! Trust me, they work loads better.

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by stharrison » Thu May 31, 2012 4:23 pm

If I'm honest, its because I'm slightly lazy, and plus a wouldn't know where to start for upper back/rear delt dumbbell work. Even though I know dumbbells are better.

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu May 31, 2012 4:44 pm

I dont' wrap thumbs around on the back squat
or straight arm pulldown

I feel pretty good about the first one, not sure about the second

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by robertscott » Thu May 31, 2012 4:44 pm

dude I'm sure we've been over this before.

Pull Ups
Dumbell Rows
Rear Delt Flyes
Curls

In that order. Pow! That's your back done.

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by robertscott » Thu May 31, 2012 4:48 pm

Oscar_Actuary wrote:I dont' wrap thumbs around on the back squat
or straight arm pulldown

I feel pretty good about the first one, not sure about the second
It's more of a guideline than a rule. Now stop nitpicking.

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu May 31, 2012 4:59 pm

robertscott wrote:2. Thumbs should be wrapped around. Always wrapped around for every exercise you ever do.
dude, I nitpick but come on, that sounds like a rule to me.

:cyclopsani:

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by robertscott » Thu May 31, 2012 6:32 pm

alright, it's a rule. But the squat thing is theexception to the rule

I'd still wrap my thumb round for straight arm pulldowns

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by NightFaLL » Thu May 31, 2012 8:43 pm

Rear delt machines are actually probably better for rear delt development/strength than DB rows, because most people don't do rear delt rows properly.

Also, strength can and will be developed on machines in the same way that free weights would do.

It's silly machoism to believe that 'machines are bad' and 'free weights are da best'.

If I load up a smith machine for instance, with the effective weight of 405lbs and do incline bench press on it for reps, would you think I wasn't strong?

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by Stephen Johnson » Thu May 31, 2012 10:15 pm

stharrison wrote:Any tips or advice is welcome :)
The closer your elbows are to your torso when you row, the more the lats take over the movement. Rowing with the elbows forming a 90 degree angle with the torso fully implements the transverse extension articulation of the shoulder. This puts the rear delts in charge of the exercise. As the elbows drift closer to the torso, the movement turns into the extension articulation, where the lats take over.

If the rear delts are a weak point that you want to train in isolation with machines, take a look at lever seated reverse flies. It is a pure implementation of the transverse abduction articulationof the shoulder

Although I prefer freeweights, I agree with Nightfall that machines are a valid option for many trainers. If using machines makes you stick to your training program, go for it.
Thanks TimD

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by robertscott » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:40 am

NightFaLL wrote: If I load up a smith machine for instance, with the effective weight of 405lbs and do incline bench press on it for reps, would you think I wasn't strong?
I'd think you were stronger if you did it with a barbell ;)

I like machines, but this kid's a beginner and should just be using free weights. IMO all beginners should start off on free weights

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by hoosegow » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:08 am

I disagree with you robert. Beginners should start on machines and build a strength base while they are learning free weight technique.
Thanks TimD.

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by robertscott » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:06 am

we're on two different wavelengths then big guy. I think beginners would be much better off using free weights. Especially for stuff that affects posture like rows.

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by KenDowns » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:49 am

The best thing for a beginner to do is begin. Start moving weight. Now. Tell us how it worked out. What do you like about the machine? Dislike?

StHarrison: if those machines are what you have, then use them. Start light and add weight each session. I'm sure you've picked up a barbell or two in your life :smile:, but if the machines are what is there, use 'em and find out what they're like.

The differences between machines and free weights are very real, but they tend to get hidden behind dogma. The reality is:

1) machines provide far more isolation. Pro: work a specific muscle. Con: less carryover to other lifts and real life, because you never really use muscles in isolation. (Example quote by Rippetoe: "the only place in the universe where the quadriceps are used in isolation is in a gym on a machine designed for that purpose.")

2) Kettlebells are the opposite extreme, where you cannot isolate a muscle because you put so much effort into maintaining balance. E.G: kettlebell press, you can barely move any weight because all of your effort goes into stopping the bell from falling over. This is the extreme opposite of machines.

These days I avoid the dogma around these arguments. I have my preferences, which lean towards barbells and dumbbells, but we have machines in my gym and I use them. My only real dogma is to get into the gym and move weight.
Vague goals beget vague methods

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Re: Machine Row/Rear Delt

Post by stuward » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:53 pm

It's not "dogma". It's a continumm between stability and instability. The greater the stability, the more force you can produce with the target muscle. The less stabilty, more effort is required by the stabilisors and less force can be produced by the target muscles. Too much time spent at the extremes of the continumm will be counter productive in the "real world" but might meet your specific needs in some specific cases.
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